new tyres - Page 2

ChamMTB · July 23rd, 2012, 12:45 PM

Guys,

I have already changed mine to Dunlop GP211's in a 200/55 rear section, mainly as the Pirellis caught a massive steel object through the rear tyre on day 2 of ownership! So that wrote off the Pirelli and I had a set of GP211's lying around.

It makes a difference to every TC system if you change the tyres - as the slip map is designed for one tyre profile. That is why all the decent aftermarket TC systems let you alter the tyre choice in the profile of the TC unit to let it know which tyres it is running. On these OEM systems, you can't do that. They are designed to run on one tyre only.

ABS doesn't work the same way and as it is basically working at it's foremost when you are bolt upright on the brakes, changing tyres won't alter it much if at all.

But leaning right over and expecting the TC to function the same with all those different tyre profiles is not going to happen. The original 1098R systems were the same. Change the tyres and you had to have that thing down on level 1 or 0 to run it on track or the TC was kicking in all over the place.

However, for street riding, you aren't going to notice. I get the little amber light on a few times a ride when it shouldn't be doing anything but I am leaned over and on the gas. It is because it is detecting the relative tyre speeds have changed and thinks the rear is slipping. It isn't. It is just because the profile is different to the Pirellis it was meant to run. The retardation in the system is negligeable and you don't even feel it, just see the little light.

When you switch to race tyres, with a massively steeper profile, the system will be all over the place and you will have to knock it down to levels 3 or below I would guess, as the far steeper tyres will be interpretted as slipping when they are not. If you turn the sensitivity right down, it will presume you are wanting to allow lots of slip and it won't cut in. That's the only option for a one-tyre TC system.

Ducati will be very sensitive to this as they a) got Pirelli to design a tyre for the bike and b) want to showcase their new super-model in the best light. They know that the TC won't work the same with the other tyres.

If you look at just how steep those Power Cup tyres are in that picture above in profile compared to the Pirelli SC's on the bike, you will see just how different the rolling radii are going to be when the bike is cranked over compared to the stock tyre.

As this bike is not that stable to begin with, those tyres might make it a bit of a handful, but it will grip like glue at full lean with a profile that steep.

You are also correct that tyre wear will make a difference to the system. As it wears, you have to turn the TC system down and allow more slip. But as the sides of street tyres don't get that worn down typically (on track they do), the TC will continue to function well enough even if the centres are a bit worn. On track, once you start cooking your tyres, even on the stock Pirelli SC's, you are going to have to turn the system down as you go.....

TransNone13 · July 23rd, 2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChamMTB

Guys,

I have already changed mine to Dunlop GP211's in a 200/55 rear section, mainly as the Pirellis caught a massive steel object through the rear tyre on day 2 of ownership! So that wrote off the Pirelli and I had a set of GP211's lying around.

It makes a difference to every TC system if you change the tyres - as the slip map is designed for one tyre profile. That is why all the decent aftermarket TC systems let you alter the tyre choice in the profile of the TC unit to let it know which tyres it is running. On these OEM systems, you can't do that. They are designed to run on one tyre only.

ABS doesn't work the same way and as it is basically working at it's foremost when you are bolt upright on the brakes, changing tyres won't alter it much if at all.

But leaning right over and expecting the TC to function the same with all those different tyre profiles is not going to happen. The original 1098R systems were the same. Change the tyres and you had to have that thing down on level 1 or 0 to run it on track or the TC was kicking in all over the place.

However, for street riding, you aren't going to notice. I get the little amber light on a few times a ride when it shouldn't be doing anything but I am leaned over and on the gas. It is because it is detecting the relative tyre speeds have changed and thinks the rear is slipping. It isn't. It is just because the profile is different to the Pirellis it was meant to run. The retardation in the system is negligeable and you don't even feel it, just see the little light.

When you switch to race tyres, with a massively steeper profile, the system will be all over the place and you will have to knock it down to levels 3 or below I would guess, as the far steeper tyres will be interpretted as slipping when they are not. If you turn the sensitivity right down, it will presume you are wanting to allow lots of slip and it won't cut in. That's the only option for a one-tyre TC system.

Ducati will be very sensitive to this as they a) got Pirelli to design a tyre for the bike and b) want to showcase their new super-model in the best light. They know that the TC won't work the same with the other tyres.

If you look at just how steep those Power Cup tyres are in profile compared to the Pirelli SC's on the bike, you will see just how different the rolling radii are going to be when the bike is cranked over compared to the stock tyre.

As this bike is not that stable to begin with, those tyres might make it a bit of a handful, but it will grip like glue at full lean with a profile that steep.

You are also correct that tyre wear make a difference to the system. As it wears, you have to turn the TC system down and allow more slip. But as the sides of street tyres don't get that worn down typically (on track they do), the TC will continue to function well enough even if the centres are a bit worn. On track, once you start cooking your tyres, even on the stock Pirelli SC's, you are going to have to turn the system down as you go.....

Thanks for the post. I will simply turn it off, I don't use anything but QS at the track and I often turn that off. Again, I'm just waiting for the tread to be finished to swap and share my experience.

Gulf Coast · July 23rd, 2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChamMTB

I get the little amber light on a few times a ride when it shouldn't be doing anything but I am leaned over and on the gas. It is because it is detecting the relative tyre speeds have changed and thinks the rear is slipping. It isn't. It is just because the profile is different to the Pirellis it was meant to run. The retardation in the system is negligeable and you don't even feel it, just see the little light.

So the technical solution is to put duct tape over the amber light then!! No light = no issue right???

Phil · July 23rd, 2012, 04:18 PM

it would make sense to make the TC according to lean angle etc, where the profile/ shape counts.

BUT: what about rider weight / load and tire pressure and wear then? missing the whole pictuure in ducati's arguement here...

jarelj · July 23rd, 2012, 05:02 PM

There's more to it than just the tire profile, the slip-thrust ratio of the tire is equally important. The Dtc system is mapped to both the profile and the slip-thrust ratio of the Pirelli tires. That is why Ducati is insistent that the bike run the oem tires in the tests, even a different 200/55 rear tire may not work well at all with Dtc. There can be a huge difference between these ratios on different tires.

jcnaranjo51 · July 23rd, 2012, 05:21 PM

Do the michellins cost less than Pirellis?

TransNone13 · July 23rd, 2012, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcnaranjo51

Do the michellins cost less than Pirellis?

I paid $365 for a complete set.

anthem · July 23rd, 2012, 05:27 PM

Everything costs less than the Pirelli Diablo Super Corsa's I think. . . I believe my last two sets of Diablo Super Corsa's SC1 cost me about $400 or 420 for the set. Michelins, Dunlops, etc are all cheaper than Pirelli's. .. .

jcnaranjo51 · July 23rd, 2012, 05:31 PM

Oh Damm I never bought pirelli I was running Bridgestone 003 on my 1098 and michellins but pirellis seem to be the best for the panigale?

TransNone13 · July 23rd, 2012, 05:32 PM

We kind of already pulverized that horse above...

d1098man · July 23rd, 2012, 05:39 PM

Man you opened up a can of whoop ass on those michelins haha.....just let him ride n be the guinea pig n then get back to us....simple formula....the tires might work out very well...who cares what Ducati says....if its that serious turn off tc

zaster · July 23rd, 2012, 05:41 PM

I hated the pirellis on my 1098...the sides wore too fast and made transition very sudden

anthem · July 23rd, 2012, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcnaranjo51

Oh Damm I never bought pirelli I was running Bridgestone 003 on my 1098 and michellins but pirellis seem to be the best for the panigale?

Pirelly Diablo Super Corsa's SP are the OEM tire and the tire "heavily" recommended to be used with the 1199 since the tire profiles for DTC is expecting the SC's to be used. To the extent that if you don't want the SC SP OEMs and want a track tire, that they also have the SuperCorsa SC1/SC2 track tires as an option as well.

jarelj · July 23rd, 2012, 05:51 PM

Dtc level 1 is optimized for the sc2 compound tire for track use, level 2 is optimized for the stock sp compound for track use.

TransNone13 · July 23rd, 2012, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthem

Pirelly Diablo Super Corsa's SP are the OEM tire and the tire "heavily" recommended to be used with the 1199 since the tire profiles for DTC is expecting the SC's to be used. To the extent that if you don't want the SC SP OEMs and want a track tire, that they also have the SuperCorsa SC1/SC2 track tires as an option as well.

Trying to get these mounted on Wednesday. I'll consider it if the TC gets crazy on me. I'll be at the track Friday/Saturday. I can also ask the vendor their prices.

anthem · July 23rd, 2012, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TransNone13

Trying to get these mounted on Wednesday. I'll consider it if the TC gets crazy on me. I'll be at the track Friday/Saturday. I can also ask the vendor their prices.

You should contact them beforehand to make sure they have 200 rears available. Frequently they don't

TransNone13 · July 23rd, 2012, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthem

You should contact them beforehand to make sure they have 200 rears available. Frequently they don't

Well, either way I'm going with the Michelins. I can ask and have them order if necessary.

d1098man · July 23rd, 2012, 06:24 PM

best of luck man....get back to us asap

TransNone13 · July 29th, 2012, 07:45 AM

Well, the tires felt great. Turned in amazingly, and had a LOT of grip. I had to turn the TC down as it was interrupting my drive out of corners a little. At 1, or off, it felt fine. BUT I will say it was very strange switching between the RC and the Pani. The seating and feedback are COMPLETELY different. Not to mention the power bands...

Kman · August 5th, 2012, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TransNone13

Well, the tires felt great. Turned in amazingly, and had a LOT of grip. I had to turn the TC down as it was interrupting my drive out of corners a little. At 1, or off, it felt fine. BUT I will say it was very strange switching between the RC and the Pani. The seating and feedback are COMPLETELY different. Not to mention the power bands...

Good to hear that the michelins performed well. I'm not a fan on the pirellis. Had them on my 848evo and now on my 1199S. I just don't seem to have as much confidence in them. They feel like they want to slip right out. I know the traction control should take care of it but...
I have my traction control down to setting 1 and I've still noticed it coming on during street rides. Never having TC before it felt a bit unnerving when it kicked in for the first time at a good lean angle. I'm sure I'll get use to it though.

Would really like to keep hearing updates about the Michelins from time to time.

July 23rd, 2012, 12:45 PM	#21
ChamMTB Member Joined: Jul 2012 From: London Posts: 37 Thanks: 2	Guys, I have already changed mine to Dunlop GP211's in a 200/55 rear section, mainly as the Pirellis caught a massive steel object through the rear tyre on day 2 of ownership! So that wrote off the Pirelli and I had a set of GP211's lying around. It makes a difference to every TC system if you change the tyres - as the slip map is designed for one tyre profile. That is why all the decent aftermarket TC systems let you alter the tyre choice in the profile of the TC unit to let it know which tyres it is running. On these OEM systems, you can't do that. They are designed to run on one tyre only. ABS doesn't work the same way and as it is basically working at it's foremost when you are bolt upright on the brakes, changing tyres won't alter it much if at all. But leaning right over and expecting the TC to function the same with all those different tyre profiles is not going to happen. The original 1098R systems were the same. Change the tyres and you had to have that thing down on level 1 or 0 to run it on track or the TC was kicking in all over the place. However, for street riding, you aren't going to notice. I get the little amber light on a few times a ride when it shouldn't be doing anything but I am leaned over and on the gas. It is because it is detecting the relative tyre speeds have changed and thinks the rear is slipping. It isn't. It is just because the profile is different to the Pirellis it was meant to run. The retardation in the system is negligeable and you don't even feel it, just see the little light. When you switch to race tyres, with a massively steeper profile, the system will be all over the place and you will have to knock it down to levels 3 or below I would guess, as the far steeper tyres will be interpretted as slipping when they are not. If you turn the sensitivity right down, it will presume you are wanting to allow lots of slip and it won't cut in. That's the only option for a one-tyre TC system. Ducati will be very sensitive to this as they a) got Pirelli to design a tyre for the bike and b) want to showcase their new super-model in the best light. They know that the TC won't work the same with the other tyres. If you look at just how steep those Power Cup tyres are in that picture above in profile compared to the Pirelli SC's on the bike, you will see just how different the rolling radii are going to be when the bike is cranked over compared to the stock tyre. As this bike is not that stable to begin with, those tyres might make it a bit of a handful, but it will grip like glue at full lean with a profile that steep. You are also correct that tyre wear will make a difference to the system. As it wears, you have to turn the TC system down and allow more slip. But as the sides of street tyres don't get that worn down typically (on track they do), the TC will continue to function well enough even if the centres are a bit worn. On track, once you start cooking your tyres, even on the stock Pirelli SC's, you are going to have to turn the system down as you go..... Thanks from Legion748 Last edited by ChamMTB; July 23rd, 2012 at 12:48 PM.

July 23rd, 2012, 05:51 PM	#34
jarelj Senior Member Joined: Jul 2012 From: Omaha, NE USA Posts: 347 Thanks: 33 I Ride: 1199 Panigale	Dtc level 1 is optimized for the sc2 compound tire for track use, level 2 is optimized for the stock sp compound for track use. Thanks from Legion748

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July 23rd, 2012, 04:18 PM	#24
Phil Senior Member Joined: Feb 2012 From: my garage Posts: 1,323 Thanks: 151 I Ride: oh yes, I do!!!	it would make sense to make the TC according to lean angle etc, where the profile/ shape counts. BUT: what about rider weight / load and tire pressure and wear then? missing the whole pictuure in ducati's arguement here...

July 23rd, 2012, 05:02 PM	#25
jarelj Senior Member Joined: Jul 2012 From: Omaha, NE USA Posts: 347 Thanks: 33 I Ride: 1199 Panigale	There's more to it than just the tire profile, the slip-thrust ratio of the tire is equally important. The Dtc system is mapped to both the profile and the slip-thrust ratio of the Pirelli tires. That is why Ducati is insistent that the bike run the oem tires in the tests, even a different 200/55 rear tire may not work well at all with Dtc. There can be a huge difference between these ratios on different tires.

July 23rd, 2012, 05:21 PM	#26
jcnaranjo51 Senior Member Joined: Mar 2012 From: la habra Posts: 149 Thanks: 3 I Ride: 1199 panigale	Do the michellins cost less than Pirellis?

July 23rd, 2012, 05:27 PM	#28
anthem Senior Member Joined: May 2012 From: East Coast Posts: 407 Thanks: 84	Everything costs less than the Pirelli Diablo Super Corsa's I think. . . I believe my last two sets of Diablo Super Corsa's SC1 cost me about $400 or 420 for the set. Michelins, Dunlops, etc are all cheaper than Pirelli's. .. .

July 23rd, 2012, 05:31 PM	#29
jcnaranjo51 Senior Member Joined: Mar 2012 From: la habra Posts: 149 Thanks: 3 I Ride: 1199 panigale	Oh Damm I never bought pirelli I was running Bridgestone 003 on my 1098 and michellins but pirellis seem to be the best for the panigale?

July 23rd, 2012, 05:32 PM	#30
TransNone13 Senior Member Joined: May 2012 From: Someville, Somestate Posts: 2,182 Thanks: 149	We kind of already pulverized that horse above...

July 23rd, 2012, 05:39 PM	#31
d1098man Senior Member Joined: Mar 2012 From: philly Posts: 217 Thanks: 9 I Ride: 2012 Ducati 1199 Base and 2005 Ducati 749	Man you opened up a can of whoop ass on those michelins haha.....just let him ride n be the guinea pig n then get back to us....simple formula....the tires might work out very well...who cares what Ducati says....if its that serious turn off tc

July 23rd, 2012, 05:41 PM	#32
zaster Senior Member Joined: Nov 2011 From: Albuquerque, NM & Bavaria Germany Posts: 394 Thanks: 27 I Ride: 2007 S4RS, 2008 1098S (sold), 2013 1199R	I hated the pirellis on my 1098...the sides wore too fast and made transition very sudden

July 23rd, 2012, 06:24 PM	#38
d1098man Senior Member Joined: Mar 2012 From: philly Posts: 217 Thanks: 9 I Ride: 2012 Ducati 1199 Base and 2005 Ducati 749	best of luck man....get back to us asap

July 29th, 2012, 07:45 AM	#39
TransNone13 Senior Member Joined: May 2012 From: Someville, Somestate Posts: 2,182 Thanks: 149	Well, the tires felt great. Turned in amazingly, and had a LOT of grip. I had to turn the TC down as it was interrupting my drive out of corners a little. At 1, or off, it felt fine. BUT I will say it was very strange switching between the RC and the Pani. The seating and feedback are COMPLETELY different. Not to mention the power bands...