Track day tyre wear - Page 2

TransNone13 · October 20th, 2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamish

The Pirellis look like a street legal slick anyway, but now I'm confused - warmers aren't necessary?

The whole idea behind warmers is to get that optimal temperature while waiting to grid, and keep them from going through as many heat cycles in the interim. Street tires hold up a little better to heat cycles than pure race tires.

Just because they look like slicks, doesn't mean a damn thing. The compound, carcass materials, plies, and compound zones all play a factor.

Quote:

Keeping your buns hot and sticky

So, you’ve done quite a few trackdays, gotten your suspension properly set-up and adjusted, you’ve been bumped into the advanced group and you’re looking to take that next step towards improving your machine’s handling. Perhaps you’ve reached the limits of performance that a street tire can provide and you’re interested in moving to a proper race tire. If this is the case, you might also want to consider investing in tire warmers.You might be thinking, “At $400+ a set, race tires are expensive enough!

Do I really need to shell out even more of my hard-earned loot for warmers?” The short answer is that you can get by without using warmers. Many riders do. The more complicated explanation is that without warmers, your race-compound tires may not last as long as they would have if you’d used warmers. Tire warmers can dramatically extend the life of your tires by reducing the number of heat cycles they go through during a given track day.Race compound tires are much grippier than a street based tire. Practically speaking, they’re shipped from the factory partially cured. Each time you use a race tire, it will generate heat as you corner and brake. When your session is over, the tire will cool back down. This is referred to as a “Heat Cycle.” Each heat cycle draws vital chemical compounds out of the rubber, effectively continuing the vulcanization process. Every concurrent heat cycle furthers this process, continually reducing the tire’s grip and elasticity. If warmers are used, you can decrease the amount of heat cycling your tires go through in a day because you don’t allow them to cool and cure after each session.Studies have determined that tire warmers will prolong the life of a tire considerably. I’ve personally found that warmers nearly double the life of my tires. By that measure, you can recoup the cost of the warmers within just two sets of tires. Using tire warmers can also help keep you safer by reducing your chances of having a “cold tire crash.” Heading out with fully warmed tires, you can run your normal pace right off the bat without wondering “are my tires going to stick?” or taking an extra two laps of your valuable track time at a reduced pace while you wait for your tires to reach a safe operating temperature. When you consider their tire-preserving ability and factor in the potential cost, pain and embarrassment of a cold tire crash, tire warmers start to look like an absolute bargain. If you choose to run race compound rubber, the decision to buy and use tire warmers becomes a no-brainer.

http://www.trackdaymag.com/partsanda...e-warmers.html

zvez · October 20th, 2012, 03:14 PM

Hamish,
I was lucky enough to have Dave Moss set up my bike at a track day. He's done a lot of work with Panis. Here's a link to his work on a pani S, it might give you a starting point:

Ducati Panigale S model | Feel The Track

OzStriker · October 20th, 2012, 03:17 PM

I find tyre warmers save wasted warm-up time at track days, makes a difference especially if there is an incident or two cutting into your session.

There is a company you can google called Kaneg, they make great warmers at an excellent price that many use here in Australia, it would be worth asking them how their warmers fit the Panigale rear.

zvez · October 20th, 2012, 03:20 PM

Hamish,

Pirelli makes the OEM supercorsa tire and another slightly differen t version the BMW and Aprilia factory run - these are pure street tires. For the track they make what in the US is called a DOT track tire, in two different compounds, SC1 and SC2 -these are designed for the track but could be used on the street, then you've got full racing compound slicks.

I'm a newbie to track days and only got serious this year. But advice from one newbie to another, spend the money on track days at first not tire warmers or race tires. The Supercorsa OEM tires will serve you quite well while you get more experience. Just my 2 cents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamish

The Pirellis look like a street legal slick anyway, but now I'm confused - warmers aren't necessary?

Hamish · October 20th, 2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TransNone13

The whole idea behind warmers is to get that optimal temperature while waiting to grid, and keep them from going through as many heat cycles in the interim. Street tires hold up a little better to heat cycles than pure race tires.

Just because they look like slicks, doesn't mean a damn thing. The compound, carcass materials, plies, and compound zones all play a factor.

No worries, I get it

Why use tire warmers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zvez

Hamish,
I was lucky enough to have Dave Moss set up my bike at a track day. He's done a lot of work with Panis. Here's a link to his work on a pani S, it might give you a starting point:

Ducati Panigale S model | Feel The Track

Thanks Chris, very useful info

TransNone13 · October 20th, 2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zvez

Hamish,

Pirelli makes the OEM supercorsa tire and another slightly differen t version the BMW and Aprilia factory run - these are pure street tires. For the track they make what in the US is called a DOT track tire, in two different compounds, SC1 and SC2 -these are designed for the track but could be used on the street, then you've got full racing compound slicks.

I'm a newbie to track days and only got serious this year. But advice from one newbie to another, spend the money on track days at first not tire warmers or race tires. The Supercorsa OEM tires will serve you quite well while you get more experience. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with above partially. If you're running OE tires, just burn them out (although warmers WILL make them last longer, but not much more for street tires). They suck anyway... If you choose to go with DOT race tires or slicks, get warmers to save a lot of money and piece of mind. I've had those Dunlop slicks for over 300 miles of lapping (albeit only 14 laps race pace) and they still have life left. Been on warmers the whole time.

zvez · October 20th, 2012, 03:28 PM

I probably wasn't totally clear, yep I meant to stick with OE tires and do spend the $$ on track days.

DOn't you pretty much have to run tire warmers if running dots or slicks since the compounds don't tolerate repeated heat cycling like street tires can?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TransNone13

I agree with above partially. If you're running OE tires, just burn them out (although warmers WILL make them last longer, but not much more for street tires). They suck anyway... If you choose to go with DOT race tires or slicks, get warmers to save a lot of money and piece of mind. I've had those Dunlop slicks for over 300 miles of lapping (albeit only 14 laps race pace) and they still have life left. Been on warmers the whole time.

Hamish · October 20th, 2012, 03:28 PM

Not sure what the law is here with DOT race tyres, guess I'll have to find out. Are you guys still running a 200 rear or a 190?

zvez · October 20th, 2012, 03:30 PM

newbie so straight oem for me, I believe someone posted that a 190 goofs the traction control abit,(I don't know how much).

Also, unless you want to hassle with a second set of wheels and you still want to ride on the street, you wouldn't want to run DOTs on the street, tho in the US you can, but they compounds are softer and they also don't tolerate heat cycling like a street tire, I'm assuming this is a combo street/track bike as is mine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamish

Not sure what the law is here with DOT race tyres, guess I'll have to find out. Are you guys still running a 200 rear or a 190?

TransNone13 · October 20th, 2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamish

Not sure what the law is here with DOT race tyres, guess I'll have to find out. Are you guys still running a 200 rear or a 190?

I run a 200/55 Power One in the back. They are DOT race tires from Michelin, I just ordered a new set (I run them on the street). Got about 4000 miles out of them.

This made me go back and check my sag. I loosened the rear up a tiny bit.

Hamish · October 20th, 2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zvez

newbie so straight oem for me, I believe someone posted that a 190 goofs the traction control abit,(I don't know how much).

Also, unless you want to hassle with a second set of wheels and you still want to ride on the street, you wouldn't want to run DOTs on the street, tho in the US you can, but they compounds are softer and they also don't tolerate heat cycling like a street tire, I'm assuming this is a combo street/track bike as is mine?

Yes it is and I had been happy with the wear from the OE tyre up until yesterday. Gave good feel, heats up quickly, can't complain.
So I have to ask what tyres that can be run on the Pani that are better than the Pirellis, or is it just a personal choice?

TransNone13 · October 20th, 2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamish

Yes it is and I had been happy with the wear from the OE tyre up until yesterday. Gave good feel, heats up quickly, can't complain.
So I have to ask what tyres that can be run on the Pani that are better than the Pirellis, or is it just a personal choice?

I wouldn't change the tire size if you want to keep DTC, but it has worked just fine switching to Michelin. I can get a full set for $365. I'm very happy.

And just like bikes, tires have their own character too. Dunlops are broad, Michelin are V shaped, and Pirelli seemed to be in the middle. I can't comment on other brands though. I like the feedback on the Michie's the best. They have a soft carcass and this seems to correlate with feedback when properly inflated.

Hamish · October 20th, 2012, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TransNone13

I wouldn't change the tire size if you want to keep DTC, but it has worked just fine switching to Michelin. I can get a full set for $365. I'm very happy.

And just like bikes, tires have their own character too. Dunlops are broad, Michelin are V shaped, and Pirelli seemed to be in the middle. I can't comment on other brands though. I like the feedback on the Michie's the best. They have a soft carcass and this seems to correlate with feedback when properly inflated.

No I wasn't planning to change the size, just wondered what everyone else is running. I find the Pirellis to have quite a steep profile, still some life left in them yet

superfly999 · October 20th, 2012, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamish

Did my first track day ever yesterday, why have I not done that sooner!!! Great day, have had plenty of track time in cars but on a bike its a different world, certainly makes you appreciate what the MotoGP and WSBK boys do.

Anyway for those of you who are regulars at track days, take a look at the wear on my rear tyre. Is this normal? Seems the tyre is getting too hot and literally melting.

We had a F1 Superbike rider and his team there testing and his suspension guy took a look at my tyre and said my suspension is too hard causing the rear to spin, valid point. However I GoPro'd a couple of sessions, had the DTC set at 5 and after reviewing the footage my DTC indicator didn't flash once to indicate loss of traction. Not only that but I kept it in 195hi but sport mode using the softer susension settings. Someone else suggested I use tyre warmers, don't see how this well help... But I'm happy to be enlightened

It was a relatively cool day, maybe 13-14C, had tyre pressures set at 30PSI for front and rear. I'm definitely no expect so your thoughts would be appreciated

I was expecting to see "Cold Tearing" on that rear as most new riders cant get heat into the tire especially without warmers and the face of the tire will rip itself into fingernail like chunks...
But your picture looks like you're melting that tire. Leads me to think that your tire being a street tire is overheating and starting to melt and that's the large pile of rubber on the sides...I'm surprised to see wear like that. Doubt you can fix that with warmers...Strange wear for your first time...

you weren't braking with the rear were you??

Hamish · October 20th, 2012, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfly999

I was expecting to see "Cold Tearing" on that rear as most new riders cant get heat into the tire especially without warmers and the face of the tire will rip itself into fingernail like chunks...
But your picture looks like you're melting that tire. Leads me to think that your tire being a street tire is overheating and starting to melt and that's the large pile of rubber on the sides...I'm surprised to see wear like that. Doubt you can fix that with warmers...Strange wear for your first time...

you weren't braking with the rear were you??

Definitely not dragging the rear brake, in fact I didn't even use it. The wear seems excessive as I wasn't pushing it. Case of nervousness, first track day and all. Haven't set the sag etc as others have suggested which I will do for the next track day, maybe harden the suspension up too. Maybe it's just a dud tyre?

OzStriker · October 20th, 2012, 11:46 PM

Did you ride offline during a cool down and pick up marbles perhaps?

Nikt · October 20th, 2012, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamish

Did my first track day ever yesterday, why have I not done that sooner!!! Great day, have had plenty of track time in cars but on a bike its a different world, certainly makes you appreciate what the MotoGP and WSBK boys do.

Anyway for those of you who are regulars at track days, take a look at the wear on my rear tyre. Is this normal? Seems the tyre is getting too hot and literally melting.

We had a F1 Superbike rider and his team there testing and his suspension guy took a look at my tyre and said my suspension is too hard causing the rear to spin, valid point. However I GoPro'd a couple of sessions, had the DTC set at 5 and after reviewing the footage my DTC indicator didn't flash once to indicate loss of traction. Not only that but I kept it in 195hi but sport mode using the softer susension settings. Someone else suggested I use tyre warmers, don't see how this well help... But I'm happy to be enlightened

It was a relatively cool day, maybe 13-14C, had tyre pressures set at 30PSI for front and rear. I'm definitely no expect so your thoughts would be appreciated

pressure is too low, this increases the contact patch giving you more grip (and less speed on the straights) but in turn it also overheats the tyre that wears off faster

Hamish · October 21st, 2012, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikt

pressure is too low, this increases the contact patch giving you more grip (and less speed on the straights) but in turn it also overheats the tyre that wears off faster

Ok, given the outside air temp and a relatively cold track, what tyre pressures would you recommend?

Nikt · October 21st, 2012, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamish

Ok, given the outside air temp and a relatively cold track, what tyre pressures would you recommend?

I think it's an art, and depends also on the weight of the rider.

This guy here explains it very well:

Tire Pressure - Inconsistent Information

there is an optimal pressure for each of us, personally I would not go below the 30.5F and 32R reported in the manual

Hamish · October 21st, 2012, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikt

I think it's an art, and depends also on the weight of the rider.

This guy here explains it very well:

Tire Pressure - Inconsistent Information

there is an optimal pressure for each of us, personally I would not go below the 30.5F and 32R reported in the manual

Sorry man, it doesn't explain much to me. Both tyres were inflated to 30psi cold temps, the wear on the front was consistent and looks fine, could 1 maybe 2psi make that much of a difference?

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October 20th, 2012, 03:14 PM	#22
zvez Senior Member Joined: May 2012 From: ga Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 154	Hamish, I was lucky enough to have Dave Moss set up my bike at a track day. He's done a lot of work with Panis. Here's a link to his work on a pani S, it might give you a starting point: Ducati Panigale S model \| Feel The Track

October 20th, 2012, 03:17 PM	#23
OzStriker Member Joined: Oct 2012 From: Perth, Australia Posts: 61 Thanks: 6 I Ride: Ducati Streetfighter	I find tyre warmers save wasted warm-up time at track days, makes a difference especially if there is an incident or two cutting into your session. There is a company you can google called Kaneg, they make great warmers at an excellent price that many use here in Australia, it would be worth asking them how their warmers fit the Panigale rear.

October 20th, 2012, 03:28 PM	#28
Hamish Senior Member Joined: Jun 2012 From: Wellington New Zealand Posts: 193 Thanks: 1 I Ride: Ducati 1199S	Not sure what the law is here with DOT race tyres, guess I'll have to find out. Are you guys still running a 200 rear or a 190?

October 20th, 2012, 11:46 PM	#36
OzStriker Member Joined: Oct 2012 From: Perth, Australia Posts: 61 Thanks: 6 I Ride: Ducati Streetfighter	Did you ride offline during a cool down and pick up marbles perhaps?