ChamMTB

Sir, you are quite right for track use, and when I am on track I run either these or the real McCoy NTec slicks made right here in good old Blighty! And they are recommended at 32f/23r hot temps - and that's how I run them.

But on the road you are recommended to run them at normal road pressures, but at the low end, so I am 32/35. According to the Dunlop tyre people here anyway.

However, the Pani was the same on the Pirelli's - so it's not the tyres. Plus I run these tyres on all my bikes on the road and they are great, and being used to them they offered a consistency to allow me to look at the rest of the setup.

ChamMTB

Boo hoo - so no joy then Rich. Disappointing. Was hoping to crib some good info there, but if it's just the same then......

When we see how well Jarel is getting on with his setup on an aftermarket TTX and the Marzocchis, I wonder if we are getting to the real issue. Have the all-singing-all-dancing Ohlins for the S/Tri just been mis-specced/badly setup for the bike/geometry?

I feel like just getting a Base Panigale and riding it back to back with mine and taking some measurements. If the bike rides more like we expect, then perhaps that's what is wrong here.....

Are the complaints all from the S/Tri guys?

The race teams are all running aftermarket rear shocks.......

lardawge

It is in P. Could that make that much of a diff!?

As far as sag numbers, I went to West Coast GP Cycles so am pretty confident they know what they are doing... Not to mention that it feels great actually riding it.

Rich22

My shock now sent for a strip down to check out and re valve as required. Interesting to see what is found.

The problem is the race teams are far from sorted out. I talk to Millsport on a daily basis (the official Ducati road race team) they are still searching for a setup. They ditched front and rear suspension some months back.

jarelj

Yes it could, P is the progressive setting, so it get's stiffer as you get further into the travel. Ducati specifies this is for riding with a passenger, so that the weight of the passenger does not bottom out the suspension. Some may prefer the P setting for street riding for various reasons as we've seen in this thread, but Ducati specifies the F setting for track use, as it is the "racing" linkage ratio that they run on the World Superstock bikes. When I switched to a flat rate linkage on my 848, I had to go up 3 spring rates stiffer to get to the right setting, that's how much of a difference it made. I think that was a bigger difference in ratio from stock to flat than is the case on the Panigale between P & F, but it's the same idea. I suppose in an ideal world, they would include a different spring for the P & F settings, and have you swap out the spring when you switch the linkage ratio. The P setting kind of "skews" your spring rate, because it provides less leverage against the spring as it moves through the travel, making it react as if it was a stiffer spring as it's compressed more. It's the same concept as an actual progressive spring on a suspension without a linkage (such as the Multistrada 1200 and Monster 696/796/1100). If you want to check it, just flip your linkage over to F one day when you have an hour to spare and check your sag again with the same spring and no other changes and see how much of a difference there is, I'd be curious to know.

ChamMTB

Interesting updates from people again today. Not sure what to make of some of the feedback.

Wish I could swap for a few laps with Jarel and us compare bikes to see what he made of mine and vice versa - shame we aren't too local to one another!

I am off to a track day next week, run by Ducati so there will be a few Dukes there, and no doubt some Panigales. Sadly, I don't have a van to run both my track bike (848) and my Panigale up together to try both, but I hope that the dealer I work with a lot might let me take one of their demo bikes out, or maybe one of their superstock bikes. That would help.

This puzzle would make more sense to me if what we had was the road riders complaining, but the race teams/track only guys saying positive things. Then you would be getting a clear steer as to the bike responding better to the track environment. Yet that's not the case, as all the track teams I talk to are struggling over here too.

At first the talk was all that the tyres were the problem, but they are running different control tyres here in Superbike and Superstock - so that's not it.

Am still going to start with the same basics as usual and go from there. Get rider sag levels right (springs, preload), then relative ride height, then overall bike height, then damping. Then tyres. One thing at a time and asses the change each time. Bayliss was lapping fast on this bike on track, yet most others are struggling. And it isn't for a lack of Ducati factory support either, as they seem to be around alot helping the UK teams.....

1198freak

Interesting how many guys are going into such detail discussing something as subjective as suspension feel- but what one guy prefers can feel like crap to someone else, so ultimately one person's settings may or may not work for others. I had a friend who had an R6 that he had jacked up high in the rear, to the point that it was unbelievably twitchy.. but he loved it that way, when I rode it it felt unstable to me. But that's how suspension is, all about feel. Also when someone makes an observation about suspension feel you don't know what level they are riding at, obviously a fast racer or track rider is going to be feeling different things than the guy just cruising around. My point is that just getting someone else's settings on your bike wont automatically improve your suspension, its a process of trial and error that individual preference plays a big part in. I always had WCGP cycles set sag and dial in what they felt were baseline Compression and Rebound settings for my weight and riding, then I would fine tune the damping myself over several days on trackdays/canyon roads.

lardawge

100% agree. I think more so we are discussing the process it took to get to that comfort level vs sharing settings. The changes I made were to get a baseline. Now I can tweak. Not much you can do when your baseline is screwed.

zvez

isn't the shock that comes on the S the same ohlins ttx sold on the aftermarket, and supposed to be one of the best?

This is a great thread btw!

zvez

Lemme ask a dumb question. Going from P to F or vice versa, can you alter the ride height by not screwing the turn buckle enough or screwing it out too much, or does it have to be exactly to spec for it fit in either P or F slot?

I want to try it in F on the track,

jarelj

No, you can't do that, there are slots cut into the shaft where the pinch bolt goes. But the shock has a ride height adjuster on the end of it, that's the correct way to alter the ride height.

Beanflicker

As far as I can see there is no high speed adjustment on the std fitment Ohlins.

Aftermarket TTX has this.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if i'm wrong..!

Another thing that I've been discussing with Rich is how much effect does the proximity of the rear downpipe to the tyre have on carcass temp?
We're hoping to do some tests where i can take heat image temps using a thermal image camera I have access to.
We're also going to do a cold/hot pressure comparison to see what kind of increase occurs to the tyre.
I will be using my R1, we'll do exact same ride, same distance etc then do the pressure test comparing increase across two different bikes and tyre make.

Finally, when Rich is fully kitted out, he's 75Kg. I'm 105Kg and my R1 is 20kg heavier. That's a 50Kg difference so I suspect my weight will have a detrimental effect on my tyre temps.
We'll let you know..

Beanflicker

You can buy after-market ride height adjusters.
This makes things a lot easier as it doesn't involve removing shock.
It can be done with bike on paddock stand too.

I used to have one on my R1.

.

zvez

That's great to know, I was worried that it would be possible to jack the rear end up, so good to know it's not possible.

zvez

This guy is going to be doing suspension setup this weekend at Barber so I'm going to let him set mine up.

On his page he's got testing for a pani S and lists settings etc:

Ducati Panigale S model | Feel The Track



and a tricolore

http://feelthetrack.com/?page_id=569

mr anderson

very interesting, most of the settings are close for the riders in the settings except for the disparity between the fork compression setting, the guy on the S uses 25 for a setting and the guy on the TRC uses a 8 setting. wonder why the large disparity on the fork compression between the two just on the one setting?

zvez

He did specify that one rider was a track instructor and rides a race pace, would that account for the difference?

zvez

Track day at Barber, Dave Moss of Catalyst was there, his link is above. He's setup several panis base and S models. Did two today.

Keep in mind I'm a mediocre track rider in the best of circumstances. but Dave was able to get mine set up BEFORE first session. He had me come back after each session to check the bike. He's very keyed in on how the tire wears so he looks this over carefully before making any additional changes. Straightaway I could tell the differen from last track day, bike felt more firmly planted and also felt very balanced in it's reactions. He also recommended 27 rear 29 ft for tire pressures today (cold) track temp was 139 today, had five great sessions.

He also said now that the suspension is set I might to try going back to F to see how it feels in road use.

Rich22

All good but track is not the big problem. Rough roads are the issue, on smooth roads they seem to be ok.
Millsport road race team have now shortened the wheel base by 10mm and say it is an 80% improvement. They went up on rear sprocket size to experiment with this.

I will wait for my re valved shock to see how that helps.

Delta One

I really like that Dave Moss, i rate him, have a couple of his DVD's. We've been trying to get a few guys together to chip in and fly him out here to set up some bikes.

@ Rich22, Say Hi to Scott and Alladin from the Dubai DOC. Tell them we're proud of em. They both used to race here and Scott is a member of our Facebook page, Aladin's brother also.

Hope you guys aren't taking the micky out of AA too much!! I heard he'd acquired the new nickname "Binny" earlier in the season ;-) LOL. Quite an adjustment for him riding with the big boys.

We've been happy to see how much they/their results have improved over the season. Good job! Go MotoRapido/Saudi Falcons!