Panigale Brake Upgrades - BEWARE!

jarelj · August 30th, 2012, 10:23 AM

The Panigale has DIFFERENT brakes than prior Ducati Superbikes, and the master cylinder has a smaller piston in it to accomodate the smaller 30mm pistons in the new M50 calipers. So this means that the calipers and master cylinder are NOT interchangeable between the Panigale and the 848/1098/1198 models (or prior 749/999). Brembo does NOT currently have a racing master cylinder available that is compatible with the M50 calipers, they said they'll have one in the future. If you use a traditional 19mm Brembo racing master cylinder with the Panigale M50 calipers, it could potentially blow out the piston seals in the calipers, which would obviously be very bad. So for now, if you want to upgrade the brakes on your Panigale for the track, you'll need different calipers (either a set of OEM monoblocs from a prior model - or a set of Brembo racing calipers), and a traditional Brembo 19mm racing master cylinder in your choice of lever ratio (or the RCS adjustable-ratio one).

Zoenala · August 30th, 2012, 10:09 PM

Thanks for the heads up...I was planning to put my R1's RCS19 on. Not that there is too much wrong with the standard 1199 setup.

Just curious, to blow out seals I presume the new M50's operate at a lower pressure, with lower pressure rated seals? The increase in master cylinder (19mm) diameter obviously has the potential to generate a higher pressure than the standard 16mm master cylinder, but it still is a function of how hard you pull the lever...

I'm no expert...just asking

Gim · August 30th, 2012, 10:18 PM

Jarel, thanks for the tip!

CHarles foxtrot · August 31st, 2012, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarelj

The Panigale has DIFFERENT brakes than prior Ducati Superbikes, and the master cylinder has a smaller piston in it to accomodate the smaller 30mm pistons in the new M50 calipers. So this means that the calipers and master cylinder are NOT interchangeable between the Panigale and the 848/1098/1198 models (or prior 749/999). Brembo does NOT currently have a racing master cylinder available that is compatible with the M50 calipers, they said they'll have one in the future. If you use a traditional 19mm Brembo racing master cylinder with the Panigale M50 calipers, it could potentially blow out the piston seals in the calipers, which would obviously be very bad. So for now, if you want to upgrade the brakes on your Panigale for the track, you'll need different calipers (either a set of OEM monoblocs from a prior model - or a set of Brembo racing calipers), and a traditional Brembo 19mm racing master cylinder in your choice of lever ratio (or the RCS adjustable-ratio one).

What is the difference between those two 19mm master cylinders that would cause one (but not the other) to damage the caliper?

What size master cylinder does the 1199 have?

Zoenala · August 31st, 2012, 07:06 AM

Stock master cylinder is 16mm diameter and RCS is 19mm. Brembo M4 has 4 x 34mm diameter pistons and the M50 4 x 30mm.

zvez · October 14th, 2012, 01:23 PM

Here's some exc. info posted by Shazaam on the Ducati MS forum

Brembo M50 Panigale callipers on 999? - Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum

"When you design a hydraulic system it's important to have good feedback from the lever as to how much lever force to apply to achieve a desired braking rate. Having good feel, sensitivity and control is the major factor influencing braking quality.

The main factor in designing good braking modulation characteristics is the ratio of the total area of the caliper pistons to the area of the master cylinder.

The Panigale calipers have a total piston area of 5655 sq. mm and has a master cylinder area of 201 sq. mm. This gives a hydraulic ratio of 5655/201 = 28.1.

The RCS brake master cylinder has an area of 284 sq. mm. Used with the Panigale calipers you get an hydraulic ratio of 5655/284 = 19.9.

A general design rule-of-thumb for twin rotor brake systems is as follows:

30:1 - soft feel
27:1 - sweet spot for design
23:1 - firm feel
20:1 - wooden feel

So the use of a RCS master cylinder isn't going to blow your piston seals but it will result in a lever that gives almost no feel, so braking will be extremely hard to modulate.

Dennie, the 1098 monoblocs have a caliper piston area of 7263 sq. in and used with the RCS will give you a very nice hydraulic ratio of 7263/284 = 26.6."
__________________

mig1199 · October 15th, 2012, 10:12 PM

A friend of mine has the RCS Brembo master on his Panigale "S" racebike.
When I squeezed the brake lever...the level felt so stiff and solid. Hardly any lever play. So then, this theory is correct. His braking is just the same though as the other Panigale riders/racers who are using the stock brembo brake master set-up.

Best to retain the stock set-up...just simply replace stock pads to EBC-HH sintered brake pads and also replace your brake fluid to a higher temp race type kind..like motul's RBF600. With these mods...you can keep stock set up.

Stock brakes are simply awesome as it is...even for racing applications.

August 30th, 2012, 10:23 AM	#1
jarelj Senior Member Joined: Jul 2012 From: Omaha, NE USA Posts: 347 Thanks: 33 I Ride: 1199 Panigale	Panigale Brake Upgrades - BEWARE! The Panigale has DIFFERENT brakes than prior Ducati Superbikes, and the master cylinder has a smaller piston in it to accomodate the smaller 30mm pistons in the new M50 calipers. So this means that the calipers and master cylinder are NOT interchangeable between the Panigale and the 848/1098/1198 models (or prior 749/999). Brembo does NOT currently have a racing master cylinder available that is compatible with the M50 calipers, they said they'll have one in the future. If you use a traditional 19mm Brembo racing master cylinder with the Panigale M50 calipers, it could potentially blow out the piston seals in the calipers, which would obviously be very bad. So for now, if you want to upgrade the brakes on your Panigale for the track, you'll need different calipers (either a set of OEM monoblocs from a prior model - or a set of Brembo racing calipers), and a traditional Brembo 19mm racing master cylinder in your choice of lever ratio (or the RCS adjustable-ratio one).

August 30th, 2012, 10:09 PM	#2
Zoenala Member Joined: May 2012 From: South Africa Posts: 59 Thanks: 5 I Ride: 1199ABS	Thanks for the heads up...I was planning to put my R1's RCS19 on. Not that there is too much wrong with the standard 1199 setup. Just curious, to blow out seals I presume the new M50's operate at a lower pressure, with lower pressure rated seals? The increase in master cylinder (19mm) diameter obviously has the potential to generate a higher pressure than the standard 16mm master cylinder, but it still is a function of how hard you pull the lever... I'm no expert...just asking Last edited by Zoenala; August 31st, 2012 at 12:59 AM.

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August 30th, 2012, 10:18 PM	#3
Gim Junior Member Joined: Jul 2012 From: Bay Area, CA Posts: 16 Thanks: 0	Jarel, thanks for the tip!

August 31st, 2012, 07:06 AM	#5
Zoenala Member Joined: May 2012 From: South Africa Posts: 59 Thanks: 5 I Ride: 1199ABS	Stock master cylinder is 16mm diameter and RCS is 19mm. Brembo M4 has 4 x 34mm diameter pistons and the M50 4 x 30mm.

October 14th, 2012, 01:23 PM	#6
zvez Senior Member Joined: May 2012 From: ga Posts: 1,708 Thanks: 145	Here's some exc. info posted by Shazaam on the Ducati MS forum Brembo M50 Panigale callipers on 999? - Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum "When you design a hydraulic system it's important to have good feedback from the lever as to how much lever force to apply to achieve a desired braking rate. Having good feel, sensitivity and control is the major factor influencing braking quality. The main factor in designing good braking modulation characteristics is the ratio of the total area of the caliper pistons to the area of the master cylinder. The Panigale calipers have a total piston area of 5655 sq. mm and has a master cylinder area of 201 sq. mm. This gives a hydraulic ratio of 5655/201 = 28.1. The RCS brake master cylinder has an area of 284 sq. mm. Used with the Panigale calipers you get an hydraulic ratio of 5655/284 = 19.9. A general design rule-of-thumb for twin rotor brake systems is as follows: 30:1 - soft feel 27:1 - sweet spot for design 23:1 - firm feel 20:1 - wooden feel So the use of a RCS master cylinder isn't going to blow your piston seals but it will result in a lever that gives almost no feel, so braking will be extremely hard to modulate. Dennie, the 1098 monoblocs have a caliper piston area of 7263 sq. in and used with the RCS will give you a very nice hydraulic ratio of 7263/284 = 26.6." __________________

October 15th, 2012, 10:12 PM	#7
mig1199 Senior Member Joined: May 2012 From: Philippines Posts: 309 Thanks: 16	A friend of mine has the RCS Brembo master on his Panigale "S" racebike. When I squeezed the brake lever...the level felt so stiff and solid. Hardly any lever play. So then, this theory is correct. His braking is just the same though as the other Panigale riders/racers who are using the stock brembo brake master set-up. Best to retain the stock set-up...just simply replace stock pads to EBC-HH sintered brake pads and also replace your brake fluid to a higher temp race type kind..like motul's RBF600. With these mods...you can keep stock set up. Stock brakes are simply awesome as it is...even for racing applications.