Truth about tyres and traction control - Page 2

Bowdy69 · January 6th, 2013, 01:49 PM

Hmmm hard to say, mainly because the slick meant I was driving off the corner harder and higher up the rev range in turn meant I was sticking 6th down the shoot instead of holding 5th. Sorry I can't give u a definitive answer on that.

The Penske was from my race parts stock from my R1 kit, only needed to knock up a couple of spacers to make it fit between the linkages. Length and adjustment is fine... I have a TTX on order so will eventually pass both of the Penske shocks on to someone who wants to try a different shock in their standard... Both will be rebuilt and fresh and set up for hard track work with a rider weight of 93kg fully kitted...

Can provide the model number if this helps

Thanks

Bowdy69 · January 6th, 2013, 02:04 PM

Hey just to throw a spanner in the suspension works... I weighed my new leathers and old leathers... 3kg different, the new ones are Roo hide... Cool.. 3kg = more speed... I'm on a diet... This is the only part of racing I moan about...

Sorry for digressing heheheheheheh...

MacaveliMC · January 6th, 2013, 02:19 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you say the compound of the tire doesn't matter?

Why does Ducati insist people run the Pirelli's? Are they the only ones making a 200 rear? Wouldn't a 200 of just about any brand work just the same?

ChamMTB · January 6th, 2013, 03:00 PM

Interesting thread......

I have switched out my tyres on the Panigale to a Dunlop GP211 Racer in a 200/55 section as I wasn't a fan of the Pirellis, and I run these on my other bikes too, so wanted some standardisation. I also run the KR106/108 slicks in a 195/65 rear profile on my bikes on track, so know what you are saying about the various options.

However, my experience of this DTC system is that it is pretty crude by comparison to my Nemesis system on my other bike. The Nemesis allows you to chose tyre by size and brand, and has two dedicated slip maps for each, one race (with anti-wheelie programable too) and one for "track day" use. It is so subtle you can hardly feel it working other than the throttle feeling like it is being rolled on slightly more gradually than you ask of it if you become ham fisted.

Now I haven't used the DTC on the Panigale yet in anger, but given the wildly different sizes, profiles (how steep, rounded etc), front and rear sections etc - I fail to see how any one slip map is going to work on anything other than one tyre. Which is why Ducati are insistent that everyone uses the Pirelli 200 in their tests etc - as they can't switch maps like you can on an RSV4, Nemesis etc.

And as for the race teams, even the superstock guys are running a different loom and ECU, so not much point asking what they do. I have a mate who has installed one of those on his, and it is a nice bit of kit (and highly tuneable too).

Best of luck experimenting - think I will just whack a Nemesis on mine (for the not-high-price) when it is available.

Bowdy69 · January 6th, 2013, 03:58 PM

Good feed back, and yes it is crude in comparison to tuneable systems, however the question was about the Ducati system, not the other after market systems that offer great solutions.

The reality is we're only applying time to this so everyone has more information and can make better decisions, which is what ur doing by going for an after market system.

And yes, it's tyre size that is the critical issue, not compound... The fact is Ducati and Pirelli have a long relationship and its commercially beneficial to both companies to align products...

We are just trying to review and inform...

Cheers

Bronston · January 6th, 2013, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TOPDUC

Nah, thats just the DTC waiting for an input from each wheel sensor to validate that the sensors are working. My Aprilia does the same thing at startup. The Aprilia however, does include a calibration function to account for different tire diameters AND gearing changes. I'm at a loss why Ducati doesn't include the calibration feature.

You're right, I was thinking about the abs light. That said, isn't the dtc piggybacked on the abs system? I believe it uses the same wheel sensor's. I strikes me there should be some initial callibration on start-up. If not so replacing just one worn tire would throw off the dtc. Doesn't traction control base it's reaction on changes in the realative velocities of front and rear wheels? It would seem that it would have to self-calibrate to work predictably.

Maybe my understanding flawed, just picked it up around bike shops.

Bowdy69 · January 6th, 2013, 04:26 PM

Worn tyre is not enough of a change for the DTC to detect, the light is the CPU carrying out a self diagnostic and waiting to get input from the sensors.

The boys are right, this system is none adjustable in regards to the slip map other than the 8 settings ducati have installed. The RSV4 system is much more versatile.

What were trying to achieve is a simple way of maintaining the Ducati prameter when fitting a 190 section tyre...

gman74 · January 6th, 2013, 05:22 PM

Any word on when the new tires will be released by the other companies. I imagine Dunlop and Michelin will have a street 200/55 version soon. I'm having great results with the Pirelli SP but they're much more costly than Q2's and Pilots.

On a side note, Redline in VA usually has a spring/summer sale for $300 installed on Pilots. I asked but they haven't had time to fix their prices for 2013 since the new tires aren't out yet.

ChamMTB · January 9th, 2013, 03:01 PM

Dunlop already have a GP Racer D211 in a 200/55 section. That's the GPA American compound tyre.

It is a flatter/more rounded profile than the stock 200/55 Pirelli though. Although 200/55 should always give the same overall central height (roughly), it gives no indication of the profile of the tyre as you start to lean it over, and this is where there becomes little comparison between the two. The Dunlop 200/55/17 GP211 and 120/70/27, on identical geometry (ride height et al) makes the bike more stable (marginally) and the steering is a little slower to tip in as a result of the larger, "flatter" profiles front and rear.

It's also a stiffer NTec tyre, so feels very different to a Pirelli. Try one, you might like it.

Bowdy69 · January 17th, 2013, 09:02 PM

Ok then, testing has resumed... So we are testing on the 28th at Philip island, I'm gonna run a fresh pair of Dunlop slicks on the S and a pair of new Pirelli slicks SC1 and 2 on the base. Settings are close now in regards to suspension so we will focus on tyres and traction control...

I've had a new traction control pulse plate made with 2 more holes, same diameter and one made with 2 less holes same diameter...

This is a really basic way of tending to the tyre rolling radius differences...

The frustration is the Pirelli slick is a 200-60-17 so slightly larger than the 200-55-17 fitted as a road tyre.

I will post some tyre size and radius data this weekend.

To throw in a curve ball there is a rumble that our friends at Michelin are going to provide slicks for the ASBK series... Haven't seen them yet.

Keep you all posted

BowHunter · January 18th, 2013, 05:22 AM

Bowdy: very interesting test that you are performing, assuming that the trigger with 2 less holes work well for the dunlop setup, is there any chance that you can supply me with trigger plates ?

Bowdy69 · January 19th, 2013, 11:03 PM

Yes, once I've tested and am happy it's an improvement I will see what I can do about getting them made for people who want to change tyre size.

Duc99 is working with me on this, we will keep you posted.

Bowdy

TricoloreSF · January 21st, 2013, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowdy69

Yes, once I've tested and am happy it's an improvement I will see what I can do about getting them made for people who want to change tyre size.

Duc99 is working with me on this, we will keep you posted.

Bowdy

I'd be interested to be put on the list as well, Bowdy. Thanks for all the testing...living vicariously through your race season as ours is still a few months away here.

Cheers

Bowdy69 · January 30th, 2013, 08:10 PM

Some data on the latest Pirelli slicks to help those who are racing, I will try to get the same data for dunlops

mig1199 · January 30th, 2013, 10:10 PM

Interesting thread.....learning!

Now it makes me feel more confident switching to other brands with a 190.55/17 tire size which is readily available in our market...hmmmm... will just have to switch the DTC level a notch higher = meaning more Traction control intervention when switching to a small rear tire size.

kope999R · February 14th, 2013, 08:08 AM

on 16,5" OZ mag wheels... with pirelli tire

checked with D corse and got myself a special DTC-box for the pirelli's slicks

from what i heard, there is some interference with compound as a detain degree of slippage of those comounds is part of the working of the tires. the DTC allows for this before cutting in.
frineds who ride their pani hard on slicks always complain that they switch the dtc off as it is too intrusive...

they'll be testing the module as well..

it already got in and i'll have it a month before the bike!

Nemisis is working on a DTC by this summer...

Bowdy69 · February 14th, 2013, 01:24 PM

I can't really understand ur comments, the traction control works off of a pulse count system, this means it has a set of parameters for each setting which in turn allows for some slip... The slip varies depending on pulse count... 16.5" rims will cause major issues with the factory traction control..

We tested our new disks, had good results, the disk with 2 extra pulses made the Dunlop feel like it was on setting NO 1

Good luck with the R, as I have said a number of times the R is not eligible for the Australian series... So it's an S or base as the starting point, both bikes are sold here with ABS so its a no brainier for us...

Bowdy69 · February 14th, 2013, 01:27 PM

Why would you run 16.5 slicks when WSBK and all other superbike series now run 17" rims, the latest 200/65/17 works well in the stock system...

Guess ur on a specific journey, don't know another rider using 16.5" rims... Good luck with that...

kope999R · February 14th, 2013, 10:45 PM

the feedback i got through Corse is that apparantly with Pirelli, the factory TC will be just fine with the blacck box.. im not in 1000 miles near where you guys are on tech, but that is what i am being told..
and hey, if its not good, i'll just have to get a set of 17".

jarelj · February 15th, 2013, 06:08 AM

They were probably referring to the slip-thrust ratio of the rubber compound being a component of the TC mapping. This is regardless of the tire size and crown radius, even two tires with identical dimensions that have different rubber compounds would need a different TC map for ideal operation. Some tires require more "slip" to generate a certain amount of thrust, and the map must take this into account. This is why with the Nemesis TCS system we use on the 848/1098/1198 bikes there is a different map for multiple tires within the same brand, such as Bridgestone slicks vs. Bridgestone R10 treaded tires. The map between those two are quite different even though the tires are the same size.

February 14th, 2013, 08:08 AM	#36
kope999R Senior Member Joined: Jan 2013 From: belgium Posts: 306 Thanks: 54	i got an R coming that i will run on 16,5" OZ mag wheels... with pirelli tire checked with D corse and got myself a special DTC-box for the pirelli's slicks from what i heard, there is some interference with compound as a detain degree of slippage of those comounds is part of the working of the tires. the DTC allows for this before cutting in. frineds who ride their pani hard on slicks always complain that they switch the dtc off as it is too intrusive... they'll be testing the module as well.. it already got in and i'll have it a month before the bike! Nemisis is working on a DTC by this summer... Last edited by kope999R; February 14th, 2013 at 08:13 AM.

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January 6th, 2013, 01:49 PM	#21
Bowdy69 Senior Member Joined: Nov 2012 From: Brisbane Australia Posts: 206 Thanks: 78 I Ride: R1, 675R, 1199s, 1199, TL1000R	Hmmm hard to say, mainly because the slick meant I was driving off the corner harder and higher up the rev range in turn meant I was sticking 6th down the shoot instead of holding 5th. Sorry I can't give u a definitive answer on that. The Penske was from my race parts stock from my R1 kit, only needed to knock up a couple of spacers to make it fit between the linkages. Length and adjustment is fine... I have a TTX on order so will eventually pass both of the Penske shocks on to someone who wants to try a different shock in their standard... Both will be rebuilt and fresh and set up for hard track work with a rider weight of 93kg fully kitted... Can provide the model number if this helps Thanks

January 6th, 2013, 02:04 PM	#22
Bowdy69 Senior Member Joined: Nov 2012 From: Brisbane Australia Posts: 206 Thanks: 78 I Ride: R1, 675R, 1199s, 1199, TL1000R	Hey just to throw a spanner in the suspension works... I weighed my new leathers and old leathers... 3kg different, the new ones are Roo hide... Cool.. 3kg = more speed... I'm on a diet... This is the only part of racing I moan about... Sorry for digressing heheheheheheh...

January 6th, 2013, 02:19 PM	#23
MacaveliMC Senior Member Joined: Jun 2012 From: Auburn Hills, MI Posts: 248 Thanks: 21 I Ride: Ducati 1199 S ABS & '09 Triumph Daytona 675	Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you say the compound of the tire doesn't matter? Why does Ducati insist people run the Pirelli's? Are they the only ones making a 200 rear? Wouldn't a 200 of just about any brand work just the same?

January 6th, 2013, 03:00 PM	#24
ChamMTB Member Joined: Jul 2012 From: London Posts: 36 Thanks: 2	Interesting thread...... I have switched out my tyres on the Panigale to a Dunlop GP211 Racer in a 200/55 section as I wasn't a fan of the Pirellis, and I run these on my other bikes too, so wanted some standardisation. I also run the KR106/108 slicks in a 195/65 rear profile on my bikes on track, so know what you are saying about the various options. However, my experience of this DTC system is that it is pretty crude by comparison to my Nemesis system on my other bike. The Nemesis allows you to chose tyre by size and brand, and has two dedicated slip maps for each, one race (with anti-wheelie programable too) and one for "track day" use. It is so subtle you can hardly feel it working other than the throttle feeling like it is being rolled on slightly more gradually than you ask of it if you become ham fisted. Now I haven't used the DTC on the Panigale yet in anger, but given the wildly different sizes, profiles (how steep, rounded etc), front and rear sections etc - I fail to see how any one slip map is going to work on anything other than one tyre. Which is why Ducati are insistent that everyone uses the Pirelli 200 in their tests etc - as they can't switch maps like you can on an RSV4, Nemesis etc. And as for the race teams, even the superstock guys are running a different loom and ECU, so not much point asking what they do. I have a mate who has installed one of those on his, and it is a nice bit of kit (and highly tuneable too). Best of luck experimenting - think I will just whack a Nemesis on mine (for the not-high-price) when it is available.

January 6th, 2013, 03:58 PM	#25
Bowdy69 Senior Member Joined: Nov 2012 From: Brisbane Australia Posts: 206 Thanks: 78 I Ride: R1, 675R, 1199s, 1199, TL1000R	Good feed back, and yes it is crude in comparison to tuneable systems, however the question was about the Ducati system, not the other after market systems that offer great solutions. The reality is we're only applying time to this so everyone has more information and can make better decisions, which is what ur doing by going for an after market system. And yes, it's tyre size that is the critical issue, not compound... The fact is Ducati and Pirelli have a long relationship and its commercially beneficial to both companies to align products... We are just trying to review and inform... Cheers

January 6th, 2013, 04:26 PM	#27
Bowdy69 Senior Member Joined: Nov 2012 From: Brisbane Australia Posts: 206 Thanks: 78 I Ride: R1, 675R, 1199s, 1199, TL1000R	Worn tyre is not enough of a change for the DTC to detect, the light is the CPU carrying out a self diagnostic and waiting to get input from the sensors. The boys are right, this system is none adjustable in regards to the slip map other than the 8 settings ducati have installed. The RSV4 system is much more versatile. What were trying to achieve is a simple way of maintaining the Ducati prameter when fitting a 190 section tyre...

January 6th, 2013, 05:22 PM	#28
gman74 Senior Member Joined: May 2012 From: Elizabeth City, NC Posts: 325 Thanks: 31 I Ride: 1199 S Panigale	Any word on when the new tires will be released by the other companies. I imagine Dunlop and Michelin will have a street 200/55 version soon. I'm having great results with the Pirelli SP but they're much more costly than Q2's and Pilots. On a side note, Redline in VA usually has a spring/summer sale for $300 installed on Pilots. I asked but they haven't had time to fix their prices for 2013 since the new tires aren't out yet.

January 9th, 2013, 03:01 PM	#29
ChamMTB Member Joined: Jul 2012 From: London Posts: 36 Thanks: 2	Dunlop already have a GP Racer D211 in a 200/55 section. That's the GPA American compound tyre. It is a flatter/more rounded profile than the stock 200/55 Pirelli though. Although 200/55 should always give the same overall central height (roughly), it gives no indication of the profile of the tyre as you start to lean it over, and this is where there becomes little comparison between the two. The Dunlop 200/55/17 GP211 and 120/70/27, on identical geometry (ride height et al) makes the bike more stable (marginally) and the steering is a little slower to tip in as a result of the larger, "flatter" profiles front and rear. It's also a stiffer NTec tyre, so feels very different to a Pirelli. Try one, you might like it.

January 17th, 2013, 09:02 PM	#30
Bowdy69 Senior Member Joined: Nov 2012 From: Brisbane Australia Posts: 206 Thanks: 78 I Ride: R1, 675R, 1199s, 1199, TL1000R	Ok then, testing has resumed... So we are testing on the 28th at Philip island, I'm gonna run a fresh pair of Dunlop slicks on the S and a pair of new Pirelli slicks SC1 and 2 on the base. Settings are close now in regards to suspension so we will focus on tyres and traction control... I've had a new traction control pulse plate made with 2 more holes, same diameter and one made with 2 less holes same diameter... This is a really basic way of tending to the tyre rolling radius differences... The frustration is the Pirelli slick is a 200-60-17 so slightly larger than the 200-55-17 fitted as a road tyre. I will post some tyre size and radius data this weekend. To throw in a curve ball there is a rumble that our friends at Michelin are going to provide slicks for the ASBK series... Haven't seen them yet. Keep you all posted

January 18th, 2013, 05:22 AM	#31
BowHunter Member Joined: Sep 2012 From: Denmark Posts: 64 Thanks: 9	Bowdy: very interesting test that you are performing, assuming that the trigger with 2 less holes work well for the dunlop setup, is there any chance that you can supply me with trigger plates ?

January 19th, 2013, 11:03 PM	#32
Bowdy69 Senior Member Joined: Nov 2012 From: Brisbane Australia Posts: 206 Thanks: 78 I Ride: R1, 675R, 1199s, 1199, TL1000R	Yes, once I've tested and am happy it's an improvement I will see what I can do about getting them made for people who want to change tyre size. Duc99 is working with me on this, we will keep you posted. Bowdy

January 30th, 2013, 10:10 PM	#35
mig1199 Senior Member Joined: May 2012 From: Philippines Posts: 305 Thanks: 16	Interesting thread.....learning! Now it makes me feel more confident switching to other brands with a 190.55/17 tire size which is readily available in our market...hmmmm... will just have to switch the DTC level a notch higher = meaning more Traction control intervention when switching to a small rear tire size.

February 14th, 2013, 01:24 PM	#37
Bowdy69 Senior Member Joined: Nov 2012 From: Brisbane Australia Posts: 206 Thanks: 78 I Ride: R1, 675R, 1199s, 1199, TL1000R	I can't really understand ur comments, the traction control works off of a pulse count system, this means it has a set of parameters for each setting which in turn allows for some slip... The slip varies depending on pulse count... 16.5" rims will cause major issues with the factory traction control.. We tested our new disks, had good results, the disk with 2 extra pulses made the Dunlop feel like it was on setting NO 1 Good luck with the R, as I have said a number of times the R is not eligible for the Australian series... So it's an S or base as the starting point, both bikes are sold here with ABS so its a no brainier for us...

February 14th, 2013, 01:27 PM	#38
Bowdy69 Senior Member Joined: Nov 2012 From: Brisbane Australia Posts: 206 Thanks: 78 I Ride: R1, 675R, 1199s, 1199, TL1000R	Why would you run 16.5 slicks when WSBK and all other superbike series now run 17" rims, the latest 200/65/17 works well in the stock system... Guess ur on a specific journey, don't know another rider using 16.5" rims... Good luck with that...

February 14th, 2013, 10:45 PM	#39
kope999R Senior Member Joined: Jan 2013 From: belgium Posts: 306 Thanks: 54	the feedback i got through Corse is that apparantly with Pirelli, the factory TC will be just fine with the blacck box.. im not in 1000 miles near where you guys are on tech, but that is what i am being told.. and hey, if its not good, i'll just have to get a set of 17".

February 15th, 2013, 06:08 AM	#40
jarelj Senior Member Joined: Jul 2012 From: Omaha, NE USA Posts: 347 Thanks: 33 I Ride: 1199 Panigale	They were probably referring to the slip-thrust ratio of the rubber compound being a component of the TC mapping. This is regardless of the tire size and crown radius, even two tires with identical dimensions that have different rubber compounds would need a different TC map for ideal operation. Some tires require more "slip" to generate a certain amount of thrust, and the map must take this into account. This is why with the Nemesis TCS system we use on the 848/1098/1198 bikes there is a different map for multiple tires within the same brand, such as Bridgestone slicks vs. Bridgestone R10 treaded tires. The map between those two are quite different even though the tires are the same size.